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Posted by John JCal Callaham on Wednesday May 03, 2006 - 01:28 PM

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» Havok Sounds Off On Ghost Recon AGEIA Physics

Game physics software engine company Havok has decided to go on the offensive and take on some claims on the newly released PC version of Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter, which is the first game to support the AGEIA physics processor. Here is some statements Havok sent over:
  • Havok Physics (on the CPU) is used for all game-play physics in both the multiplayer and single-player PC versions of the game. All persistent collidable objects in the game are simulated using Havok software technology running on the CPU.
  • Havok’s logo is on the GRAW PC box, substantiating Havok’s use in the game (confirmed by Ubisoft marketing). Havok was also used in recent GRAW releases including Xbox360, Xbox, and PS2 skus.
  • AGEIA Novodex is said to be used in the single-player GRAW version for added PPU-accelerated effects – at the most AGEIA appears to be used for particle effects – and in no-way affects game-play outcome. AGEIA is NOT used in any way in any GRAW sku other than the PC.
  • From our inspection, differential effects in the GRAW PC game when using the PPU are not significantly obvious – but where they can be observed, additional particles do not appear in volumes greater than 100’s of particles (a range that is typically easily in the domain of the CPU/GPU for particles). These observed particle effects are also only particles and not apparently persistent rigid bodies. They pass through the environment after a short time (seconds) at most.User comments back this up: "…to be honest it looks exactly same with the PPU as it does without it, the only difference is you get the extra blocks/debris, the strange thing is these extra blocks/debris seem to appear unrealistically out of no where when you shot things like the wall, floor etc, it really is like they've just been tacked on just to say *this game supports PhysX*."
  • Consumer reports from users who already have purchased the PPU and GRAW indicate that the PPU “actually slows down the game” in moments when effects are generated that are unique to the PPU. The effects described above appear to be the cause of the slow down – our observations here using a DELL/PPU confirm this. Also see http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=17568825. One user comments states: "10-16 FPS slower with hardware PPU, I guess I need another GPU (SLI) to help render the added debris and effects I get from using the PPU, the price of PC gaming just went up again :-(, I can't believe that I have to disable the hardware PhysX card I just paid 200 quid for so that I can play GRAW at an acceptable FPS, to be honest I just feel like giving up on PC gaming these days."
  • AGEIA appears to imply and consumers conjecture that the PPU is generating so many objects that the GPU cannot handle the load. Multiple direct tests on the game by using NVIDIA’s and ATI GPUs indicate the GPU has room to spare and in fact, if the PPU is factored out of the game, that the particle content generated by the PPU can easily be drawn at full game speeds by the GPU. So the introduction of the PPU most certainly appears to be the cause of the slow down in this case. NVIDIA specifically can technically verify that the GPU is not the cause of the slowdown.

    We should stress that Havok is supportive of efforts like GRAW and Ubisoft specifically is a valued and strong business partner. More generally, Havok is a strong supporter of the PC development community with over 38 titles shipped to date on the PC using Havok technology. Havok is very enthusiastic about the prospect of additional acceleration for physics in PC games – specifically coming from multi-core CPUs and GPUs – both dual configurations and cutting edge GPUs targeting both graphics and “GP-GPU” applications.

  • FiringSquad will get some comments from AGEIA about Havok's statements.

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    #46 Author: Anonymous at 12:48am 06/20/2006  
    Comment:
    Reply to This
    And let me add that the real winner of this physics competition will
    be the one that lets that second core do PPU calculations instead.

     
    #45 Author: Anonymous at 12:46am 06/20/2006  
    Comment:
    Reply to This
    i cannot believe some of you pig heads actually supporting ageia and
    downing havok.. either your ignorant, or you are paid person from
    AGEIA themselves... Look, go check out tomshardware.com matter fact,
    check any site, ageia is awful, and nvidia is not turning the second
    card in SLi to ALL PPU its just going to be doing on the side also,
    which, for free, sounds pretty nice of them to add on just on a
    driver update and not just use it as a feature to promote their 8x00
    series of cards in the future. The fact of the matter is AGEIA DOES
    eat resorces, and it only works for ONE type of phyics engine, and a
    bad one at that. I bet, the people defending ageia are the idiots
    who bought the PPU in the first place trying to be all cool and
    "cutting edge" only to find out they just wasted money. GG
    nub, go kill urself byekthx dont try to turn ur theory AKA AMBITION
    into fact.

     
    #44 Author: Anonymous at 09:48am 05/17/2006  
    Comment:
    Reply to This
    Sounds to me like Havok has their panties in a twist, we did this,
    we did that, we are better... Havok should build a piece of hardware
    to compete with Ageia instead of using this band aid approach, the
    GPU was built for graphics, thats why its called a GPU, Graphics
    Processing Unit, if it did physics it would be called a PPU or
    Physics Processing Unit.

     
    #43 Author: Anonymous at 01:20am 05/9/2006  
    Comment:
    Reply to This
    COMPUTAR GAEMING. SERIOUS BUSINESS.

     
    #42 Author: Anonymous at 11:38am 05/6/2006  
    Response to #40:
    Reply to This
    CPU's arent good at physics calculations. Wouldn't matter if you
    dedicated an entire seperate cpu to physics, the ppu would be a lot
    better. CPU's generally don't have enough float calculation power to
    keep up. Where as the PPU is just a huge float point calculator. So
    is the GPU, but it has a different instruction set.

     
    #41 Author: Anonymous at 02:07am 05/6/2006  
    Comment:
    Reply to This
    Look if it was like a voodoo card back in the day and it could
    accelerate already existing games with a little tweaking, I may
    consider getting a PPU..


    In reality though it's an extra 200 bucks on an already expensive PC
    and in the long run it doesn't really do much... I think Havok has a
    more elegant solution...


    Not to mention seeing how now a days it's hard to find an open slot
    in a desktop with Video cards taking up 2 slots, Wireless network
    cards and SLI rigs....

     
    #40 Author: Anonymous at 02:32pm 05/5/2006  
    Comment:
    Reply to This
    All I know is that this PPU aint cheap,having said that,it makes
    more sense to get a dual core cpu than this,at least for me,as long
    as the developers use the second cpu for physics and whatever else
    that is.

     
    #39 Author: Anonymous at 02:13pm 05/5/2006  
    Comment:
    Reply to This
    guys, competition is good! thats where innovation comes from

     
    #38 Author: Anonymous at 02:34am 05/5/2006  
    Comment:
    Reply to This
    This is really daft, am I not reading this right, or are they first
    saying their engine loads off physics onto the cpu via their
    software model. But they claim that the gpu can keep up? err you
    just said the CPU does the work, not the GPU? PC games are already
    suffering for various reasons, and CPU's are a big slow down right
    now. You need only take a look at intels new conroe which added
    30-50% frame rate improvement over amds current cpu giants like the
    FX. Where as the 7800gtx vs 6800u only added around 15% improvement
    on some games. But now I hear that GPU's are being overloaded and
    anyway and need to take on the new DX10 supported model of unified
    shaders. ATI did it, and nVidia said it was a stupid idea. Funny
    really because isn't ATI (if anything) kicking nVidas $@% to bits
    with 'on gpu' physics acceleration. I don't really know who to
    believe in all this, Havok obviously want to stand up for themself
    so they don't just die out, and nVidia and ATI will backup the 'gpu
    can easy cope' theory because now they can say 'Hey! get one gpu for
    graphics and another for physics!'. Not really buying it, as for
    graw, I think it's quite obvious that the game never really planned
    to use this physics from the base, it was just a cheesy add in,
    which has had bad implementation.

     
    #37 Author: Anonymous at 10:29pm 05/4/2006  
    Comment:
    Reply to This
    Anyone heard of Z Culling?

    Anyone also know what happens when you try to render ALOT of objects
    that are potentially hidden?


    I've been experiencing jerky lag in games for the last eight years
    since Z Culling has been put into both ATI and NVidia cards. It's
    very slight screen lag and it's hard to distinguish if you don't
    look for it. If for instance two people are heading straight for the
    same corner and they're both looking straight ahead, if they do a
    sharp turn at the corner right as the other person is about to
    appear you'll notice a bit of a stutter for lack of a better word as
    the person is being drawn. Once again it isn't noticeable if you
    aren't looking for it but it is there. I notice it on multiple
    systems, some not even my own.


    Now imagine if you have 1,000 boxes blown into the air. How does a
    video card know which ones to draw and which ones not to without
    lagging? GRAW doesn't even have that many objects and the answer is
    already becomming aparent. Everyone is pointing fingers now but I'm
    almost 100% sure this is the problem.


    I sent ATI a letter about this awhile back and got the common 'we
    never heard of that problem sir' response. Posted in a few hardware
    forums and no one cares or notices.



    Oh yea. If CellFactor was allowed to run on a PC without a PPU how
    well do you think it would fare with the physics being offloaded
    onto a dual rig, a quad one even?


    Havok is blowing hot air because they're angry they have competition
    (same with ATI and NVidia getting into things they don't even relate
    to). If a PPU had a chance to strech it's legs even a bit they
    wouldn't have anything to say.

     
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